Wednesday, July 14, 2010

Similar values and yet totally different answers

Although I don't often take someone's comment from the comments and bring it to  a new topic mainly because it seems unfair to take it out of context, but this comment so succinctly explains how I feel that I am going to do it. Hope you don't mind, Harold. You said it so well.
HMBabb said...
I don't understand how I could talk with someone for a half hour and we'd agree on every point and then she'd say, "that's why I vote Republican."
People talk about neighbor helping neighbor and keeping big brother out, but the first hospital in America was a charity hospital in Philadelphia chartered by the Pennsylvania Colony founded by Dr. Thomas Bond and Benjamin Franklin. Even then people outside Philadelphia complained that it was wasted money to them.
3:39 PM
I didn't want his comment to be lost in the stream. The question is how is it many of us can have similar values, really want the same things with maybe variations of degree, but then see the solutions so totally opposite? What the heck is this all about? I run into it a lot with those from the right as they probably do when they look at me from the left.  Although I did write about it before, I didn't figure it out and still am looking for how this happens.

Some I am sure is how we weight different issues. We might all see this or that isn't good but I have it down the line for problems while someone else has it at the top. Some is our experience in life and who and what we have seen abuse or help a situation. Some maybe how we are raised.

Wally sent me a link while I was mulling this all over that seems to relate. It is from July 12th: [How Made Up Minds Threaten Democracy].  It doesn't matter which way our minds are made up if we can no longer look at facts but then-- how many of us interpret those facts differently?

With our country pretty much divided in half on a lot of big issues, I wonder if there is any way to bring ourselves together to work on the few we might agree upon?


Greybeard said...

"I wonder if there is anyway to bring ourselves together to work on the few we might agree upon?"

I doubt it, because many of us either don't know history or hope doing the same thing over and over will eventually result in a different outcome.

"Doctor it hurts when I do THIS."
"Don't do THAT."
But addicts can't help themselves, can they?

Rain said...

You can hear similar ignorance on both sides of this divide. That's not the norm of what people expect and I hope some of the ignorance I have heard at these anti-tax rallies is not the norm there either.

Greybeard said...

Citation please, Rain.

Rain said...

I cannot do a search of YouTubes for the literal interviews as I cannot use YouTube. If someone wants to do that, who doesn't have Hughes Net, please do so.
The one that pops in my mind is the person who said they demanded that the government stay out of health care and keep their hands off the person's Medicare. this sign says it pretty well but there was an interview: Medicare Sign

or this

Now maybe you are about to tell me that all tea partiers believe that Obama is a communist, a Hitlerite, a Muslim, that he wants to destroy this country and if you do say that, then I will have to retract my thinking that not all tea partiers are threatening violence if they don't get their way. I have been seeing a lot of town halls where the tea partiers sound rational. I disagree with them, but at least they are following a Ron Paul line and not saying how much they love their country while they threaten to blow it apart. They are talking about winning at the ballot box, but maybe that's also being cherry picked.

To me to hear someone say that what is happening is taxation without representation, a popular sign at such rallies, ignores there was an election. Do all tea party people think they only are represented fairly if they voted for the person who won the election?

Lately there has been a lot less of this: Racist sign which maybe has fooled me into thinking this is not a group with thinking as far out in the opposite direction as that YouTube you had which was one woman before Obama even took office.

These signs and these interviews were everywhere, easy to find a few for my citation of what I meant, but lately what I have seen has seemed a lot more subdued but maybe that's been the media doing a sell job to try and convince the rest of us that it's a viable political movement and not one ready to shoot anybody who disagrees. You would know better than me.

Rain said...

I should have said I cannot do that much YouTube. I can watch a minute or two of it but if I did a search there, it would put me over my usage limit. YouTube uses a lot of bandwidth... I think that's the term.

Rain said...

Although the woman who was running for the Republican nomination for senator in Nevada, who had that interview where she suggested going back to a barter system for seeing a doctor, now that was a tea partier and I would say high up to be running and yet that was totally nuts to think doctors will start trading chickens for a physical or that most people have anything they could trade a doctor these days. Reality is times change and some don't want it to. But I have not assumed all tea partiers are that ignorant of reality. She didn't win although the one they did nominate, also a tea party person evidently wants to end all SS and Medicare. She might be backtracking on that though given she will need more than tea party votes and Nevada doubtless has a fair number of seniors who won't think well of ending either of those programs...

Greybeard said...

"I wonder if there is anyway to bring ourselves together to work on the few we might agree upon."

And the answer, obviously from reading your comments dismissing anything you haven't made your mind up about, is a resounding NO.

Rain said...

You asked for what I saw as a similar bunch on the other side. You got it!

Greybeard said...

I can talk all day long about crazies wanting Dick Cheney to die, GWB to die. I know there are extremists on both sides.
But it's been my experience Obama voters paid NO attention to his talk about bankrupting the coal companies...
His promise that energy costs would "skyrocket".
And although many heard the words, most didn't fully weigh the "Spread the wealth around" comment.
Now those folks are having serious buyer's remorse.

I'll ask again Rain, and you don't have to show me videos... I'll be perfectly happy with something in print, (provided it's not the NY Times!)
Please show me ignorance that even remotely approaches the ignorance in the comment Peggy Joseph made.

Rain said...

Unfortunately blogger limits the size of a comment and this one goes into two comments to get it all in. It's my answer and coming in parts.

Rain said...

Everything I linked was real signs by real people at these so-called tea party events, and as good as any article, especially if the article was from a biased source on either side or worse one of those emails that circulate around, get everybody upset and are all lies.

I have seen myself when the candidate from Nevada did the interview where she said barter can be used for poor people to pay for doctors like it was in the old days. You doubtless saw it too and don't need a YouTube from me to remind you of the ignorance of reality that she displayed.

The problem you and I have is that where I can see the ridiculousness of thinking the government would give that woman all kinds of free stuff just because a black was in office, but you cannot see it on the other side. You apparently do not see that a sign with a gun on it is worse as it is ignorant of all this country actually stands for, of the Constitution, and in addition a threat meaning that 'if the vote doesn't go my way, I have other alternatives.'

Unless this country really has a military coup, something I sure haven't heard any talk from the military itself (other than that bunch who promise to not obey military or police orders if they aren’t what they want to hear by their beliefs-- ones who'd likely be fired or thrown out of the military if it was known what they have signed), their gun won't do much good. And if the military stages such a coup, I suspect the tea partiers won't be getting the kind of government they were hoping for as it won't be pretty in this country for a long time to come. There are even those among the right who won't like that kind of thing once they see what it means and all you have to do is look at history to see what it would mean.

Such a military coup would be the end of this government for sure but also our Constitution. What would come next? Well I won't worry about it as I think the very idea is ignorant.

I live where there are militias and I know a lot of the ones who belong to such. It's not very encouraging for the future of our country if they end up ruling little fiefdoms which is what would happen for a long way into the future before there was some kind of consolidation again under a new form of government. To me, it's ignorant to think that will happen.

Righties can do all they want with threatening and trying to scare people, with telling the rest of us that they don't really believe in voting but only in winning; but in reality they can't stand against the US military. And I do not think the Military will turn on its own government. There are better ways to turn around a government you don't like and it's called the ballot box. For now we still have one.

Rain said...

What really irks me is that we didn't have an elected president in 2000 and yet Americans all rallied behind him when 9/11 happened. You didn't hear this talk of using violence to unseat him. The left wants to see victory but through voting. And if Palin should win the presidency in 2012, something I don't consider totally impossible, you won't hear it from the left then even if a few might suggest they will move. Most will just knuckle down and try harder to get a person with their their political views and hope she doesn't damage the country too much in four years.

Despite all the talk of patriotism, the left believes in this system obviously more than the right or at least those in the right who put up the signs with guns saying next time they might be coming with them.

You cannot see that using a racial insult is not just as bad as ignorance as it cuts off dialogue? But if you don’t, what did the Congo mean in that sign or don't you see that as ignorant?

And as for ignorance on socialized medicine. The 'protect my medicare' doesn't sound ignorant of not understanding Medicare is government? More even than that are those who yell out no socialized medicine but would be horrified to learn that would mean ending all VA hospitals and medical care for veterans which is the ultimate government run health care with the very doctors employed by the government. and in case you don't think that would be horrible to end veterans medical benefits, keep in mind my brother is alive today and has every chance to live to be an old man because of those benefits for veterans who don't have enough money for doctors elsewhere!

You can only see the ignorance of this woman who is probably also mad as hell at Obama now and not going to vote for him again.

Rain said...

You are right. A lot of people didn't pay attention to what Obama said he would do. I didn't happen to be one of those. I read his promises and understood he'd not be as far left as some wanted (who are now as angry probably as that woman in your link) but I read them and knew he'd be working on some issues that mattered to me. He has disappointed me too with not closing Guantanamo, with not doing more to end the unfairness to gays in marriage or even ending don't ask don't tell; but I didn't expect it all instantly. I disagreed with him on Afghanistan but he said what he'd do and he's doing it. Anybody who didn't pay attention to that wasn't reading his words.

The problem Obama faces today is many had put him on nearly a Messiah level for what they expected and he didn't deliver because he wasn't. We in this country like to build up heroes (actually most humans do this) and then destroy them. It's not admirable but it seems to be human nature.

After I read some of those signs (and there were worse as anybody can tell by going online and doing a search in images), I was furious at the very idea that they would think what they did. I am mad that someone would claim they were disenfranchised because the vote didn't go their way. That means they have no comprehension of a democratic process and deep down inside are no different than the Islamic radicals who use fear tools and worse (like flying planes into IRS buildings to kill innocent people or blowing up a federal building like McVeigh) to get what they want. I am furious at those who want to threaten to get what they want.

I really had been hoping, that ignorant as I think it is to claim Obama is taking more of their income (when he cut taxes on the middle even further), that at least is something we can talk about and use reason to work with. We cannot do that when people threaten violence to get their way like some of the signs that said 'this' time they were coming unarmed. What was that supposed to mean except a threat that they were going to try a revolution if they can't win at the ballot box? And I consider that a direct threat to my way of life and all I value, to the flag those people wave so proudly with no understanding of what it stands for.

Ignorance? I say there's plenty on the far left and right but you see only the one it appears.

Rain said...

And I have no idea what other people think about Cheney's health problem and the seriousness of his situation but I am not one who relishes it or wants him dead. He has daughters and a wife and I don't wish bad on anybody. I feel sorry for him. He's suffered a lot and now is doing more to continue to live than I'd do if I had the same problem. In that, I respect his tenacity. Well actually that's one of the things a person can always respect about him even if they totally think he's wrong.

I also never wished tragedy on GW Bush. That kind of thing is evil, backfires on the one wishing it, and I won't defend those on either side who say such things.

Rain said...

I could have turned this all into a blog and it would have been easier but I wanted it here in comments and so went to the trouble to make it be here.

Rain said...

and before you remind me that there are violent extremist groups on the left who have done horrible things, I know it but the bulk of the left doesn't defend them as being patriots. We see them as criminals deserving to be prosecuted when caught. anyone who does defend them is also an extremist in my view.

Ingineer66 said...

Well you are part right Rain. The left makes their violent extremists into University Professors.

Rain said...

He escaped jail on a technicality but should have done time in prison and that would have ended the possibility of university employment as a felon. I think many during the Vietnam war who went off the deep end mentally and for what they did, would agree today they lost sight of reality (which never excuses it), and we see it with environmentalists who lose all track of reality as they burn buildings, put stakes in logs to kill loggers, but to me they are criminals, not heroes.

Does the far right equally make people like the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building into a bad guy? Some probably did but I saw some who praised it as the first wave of an attack. I don't respect those who use or threaten violence when they don't get their way on either side! If any of us justify it, we encourage more.

I have been thinking of writing a blog on this threat of revolution (or domestic terrorism) that a few are spouting now, the stockpiling of arms, the training in militia groups so they will do what? It's an interesting question to me living in militia country as I know who the people would be if this happened and they had established little fiefdoms. I have wondered how real the possibility is? I don't see it as potentially successful unless it came after a huge national disaster, but I don't know how big the numbers are of those who would like to overthrow the government and establish their own? Or do they just want to overthrow and let it all settle into chaos? These times have come and gone in the past but so far without any revolutions. Doesn't mean it could never happen.