Monday, July 05, 2010

Divisions

When I was in the 'evil empire' (affectionate nickname for a well known big box store), I noted one of the tabloids had another story about how President Obama is not a citizen and thereby should be thrown out of his job. I might not have looked to see what it said as this particular tabloid has been big on such stories (or trying to find a sexual scandal to lead to an impeachment and more distractions from the real business of Congress). But Farm Boss was not coming and I had time at the front of the store; so I read the story.

It was the usual mix of untruths but it will appeal to the far right types who are desperate for anything to blame Obama for. Basically it had a claim by a government worker in Hawaii who said he was able to get into the secret birth certificate area and it turns out there is no birth certificate there for Obama.

We don't know this person was who he claims. We do know the Supreme Court has refused to look into the matter. We don't know that there even is such a worker although it had a name for him. We do know he was a dishonest worker since he obviously cheated on his employers for what he obviously decided was a higher cause. Lying could be also for someone like that.

I have read that nobody has a paper certificate in Hawaii as they have gone to only computerized records but I wouldn't care any which direction as if Obama was born in Kenya, he was in the United States immediately after birth. What the Constitution was attempting to limit was someone being elected president who was raised in another country and where their loyalties might not be with the United States.

What the birthers want is a technicality (at the most) to throw out a legitimately elected president. Driving back the freeway after delivering our grandchildren to their parents in Medford, the only radio station we could find was far right talk. I listened for awhile to someone who talked of being disenfranchised because they didn't vote for the current president. Well, I was disenfranchised then for 8 years with more catastrophic results than what Obama has yet managed to do. (I'd be happy to expand on what those were in another blog); but this. in the worst case scenario. is on that minor technicality that birthers would love to expand into disenfranchising me only this time in an unethical way.

 When I put down the magazine, a man who was passing said, "they haven't given up on that yet, huh?"

I grinned as I was a little surprised, since the town with the 'evil empire' is one that should not be Obama country. I mentioned what the accusations were although they were nothing new. We talked for a bit about tabloids and their propensity for these kinds of stories. Most though who read them, or even who look at the headlines as they pass in the store will consider it to be more ammunition for their paranoia that Obama is out to destroy this country.

There was another story on Drudge also over the Fourth about how polls show Obama has divided the country. Again it is using innuendo to create a headline that is a lie. Obama didn't divide the country. It has been divided for some time. He just didn't heal it. He can't. It has to be people who quit believing lies and begin to think on real problems.

34 comments:

TellerIP said...

I keep pointing out that Adamas made this claim three weeks ago and no one has confirmed it. He said that "everyone knew," yet no one has confirmed.

In contrast, Obama has shown the official birth certificate of Hawaii, and the facts on it were confirmed twice by the officials in Hawaii and the governor of Hawaii, and there is this witness who recalls being told of Obama's birth in Hawaii and writing home about it (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2170432/posts). For that matter, Obama's Kenyan grandmother never said that he was born in Kenya. She said on tape that he was born in Hawaii, and in another interview she said that the first that her family had heard of Obama's birth was in a letter from Hawaii.

Obama himself indicated in 1995, long before running for Senate much less president, that his mother did not have a passport in 1961. That of course means that she could not have given birth in any country other than the USA.

Robert the Skeptic said...

You know, the conservative wing-nuts will spin the wheels because all they are focused on accomplishing is getting THEIR candidate in power. If that is how they want to waste their time, more power to 'em.

I love what Jon Stewart said on Yhe Daily Show right after the election: "We had the election and you lost... it's supposed to taste like a shit taco. Get over it!"

Kay Dennison said...

I don't understand this mentality. The day I do, I hope someone shoots me because I've obviously lost my last brain cell. This "thinking" is pure, unadulterated racist bull*hit.

That the tabloids are still fueling this fire I think borders on treason and sedition.

Ingineer66 said...

I do not get this either. Obama was elected president by the people just like George W. Bush was. Why do people spend so much time and energy trying to undo an election that has been deemed certified and final. There are plenty of legitimate issues to attack Obama on, focus on those if you don't like him, but this Kenyan thing is not going to go anywhere ever. If there was any chance of that Hillary would have played that card during the primaries.

Greybeard said...

I'll once again remind those that think this is a stupid issue that the Constitution lays out what makes a person eligible to become POTUS, and we are ignoring our Constitution all too often these days.

Having said that, I too think Obama was born in Hawaii. The problem with the birth certificate is that he may not, by definition, be a "Natural Born Citizen". There's the rub.

When he has embarrassed the Democrat party enough, and WHEN it is to their advantage to do so, it may very well be them that pulls the rug from beneath him.
I think we'll find at some point that he claimed to be a foreign student (Indonesia?) to get aid for school. Only history will show if I'm correct.

Today we find he wants NASA to spend money to make Muslims feel good about themselves.
Money...
We're printing plenty of it.
Where's mine?

Rain said...

I saw Krauthammer's complaint about that but not sure what was going on with it. The NASA guy seemed to be saying he was told to be a goodwill ambassador to Muslim nations. It sounds crazy but then politics is crazy to me these days... as for the money, well they are printing more of it; so maybe we can all get some even if it won't be worth anything ;) I am thinking asking for what we want in trade goods might make more sense...

Rain said...

On Constitutional requirements, I don't think they should be ignored but just make sense. None of the first leaders of our country were natural born citizens of the United States of America. They could not be given it wasn't here when they were born. Technicality, right?

I would actually favor changing the requirement as I would have liked to see someone like Swartzenhegger allowed to run. The concern is to have someone here long enough and when their first loyalty is to the US and who could deny any of those things with him whether you agree with him politically or not.

Greybeard said...

What the NASA Chief actually said Rain was that Obmama said his "foremost" job was to reach out to Muslim Nations and educate them on their great contributions to the world vis-a-vis Math and Science.
For a guy who is battling the crazos that accuse him of being a Muslim, this bonehead sure feeds everyone the ammunition to use against him, doesn't he?
NASA's "foremost" task?
What have we reduced ourselves to?
How about fixing OUR economy President(?) Obama?

Rain said...

IF Obama said that, I agree, it sounds nuts to me also. The article said it was uncertain if this guy was quoting him or it was the gist of what he believed. We do have a terrible problem with terrorism that could explode at anytime again; but the ones likely to be responsive to a career with NASA are also not likely to be the terrorists... are they? ack! Remember one of the lies of the Muslim fanatics has been NASA hasn't done what it claimed, didn't even get to the moon. I don't know if that's part of what this is about-- a propaganda war. Still it doesn't seem like it's their place even though they are the ones being denigrated by those who claim they didn't do what they did.

At any rate, it doesn't make sense if that is what Obama told him. Right now I go by what Reagan used to say-- trust but verify. In this case, I only know what Krauthammer said, not what Obama said.

Greybeard said...

In his own words:
Charles Bolden to Al Jazeera

Rain said...

Well at the risk of being called a bigot by some and having you think I am an Obama supporter do or die, I can see some logic in this. The bigotry comes into play because as I understand it, the Arabic world did do a lot of the beginning of mathematics, was state of the art in an early time in history. Things happened there that weren't in the less advanced Europe; but the Muslim religion has been a detriment to that and since it became the dominant religion, it has been downhill all the way for them in terms of science.

So if the idea is to help them remember their past and get a grip on what has happened, it makes sense. I also see that people like Ahmadinejad have denied we went to the moon. They are trying to deny to their culture what has happened to it and why.

It hardly seems it should be one of NASA's major jobs though and you'd think others, who aren't involved in developing the new technologies, should be those doing the propaganda spreading. So I agree, it seems like a wrong direction given our economic times for him to have expected that from NASA.

It is though a multidimensional approach to something complex which is the root of our problem in the Muslim world today. If they can become more developed though, right now, with that religion at their helm, it wouldn't be to our good. So... at the risk of sounding like the guy in Princess Bride, I agree with you it was a wrong thing.

(Hopefully Muslim extremists don't find this blog *s*)

Rain said...

And since there are many technically savvy Muslims in the Western world, it isn't just the religion obviously but what they have accepted for their government in that part of the world-- or become trapped into through dictatorships that deny education... And I should quit while i am ahead or behind depending on which one I am...

Anonymous said...

It has now been four weeks since Adams made his claim, and it still has not been confirmed.

Greybeard said...

Difficult to confirm when Obama refuses to allow the State of Hawaii to release the "Long Form" birth certificate, right anonymous?

Ask yourself this...
Why is Obama $pending million$ to keep the Long Form under wraps?
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can tell...
There's a problem here.

Fix the damn economy Mr. President(?), and stop the flow of oil AND illegals!

Rain said...

Releasing anything would not convince birthers, graybeard. Fact Check on Born in the USA. They would still say it was forged, that he paid off someone, etc etc. It simply won't go away and frankly a lot of is because he is multiracial had a Muslim father, and spent some years in Indonesia. If he was white, say John McCain, who was born in Panama, would it still be coming up?

I agree with you-- fix what is wrong with the country and let this thing go but part of what makes some think they can ignore the vote of the majority is this kind of thinking. It provides a justification.

It's the same mentality that believes Bush was behind 9/11 and plotted to have it happen. Whether it's the right or the left, the conspiracy theories will suck out the energy from dealing with real problems.

Not to say conspiracies never happen because they do *dum de dum dum*. They are usually though found out many years later when they no longer matter.

Greybeard said...

So Rain, you think he won't release the birth certificate...
That he's spending millions to keep it sequestered, because "They" will say it's a forgery?
Unbelievable.

What flavor kool-aid is that?

Rain said...

I have no idea what his motive is for anything and spend very little time wondering about it. I am just saying his current birth certificate is enough to get a passport and if it's not really evidence, why does it work for any of us for that? I think those who are worried about it won't believe anything that he shows and will say it's a forgery. I spend more time wondering about the motivations of birthers than Obama and neither much other than to write about it.

And grape please... oh and with a shot of scotch on the side :)

TellerIP said...

There are two reasons why Obama does not release his original birth certificate: (1) He has already released the OFFICIAL birth certificate, the facts on which have been confirmed by the officials in Hawaii, and this is sufficient; (2) He cannot release the original because he does not have it, and Hawaii does not send it out anymore. It has not sent out the original birth certificate since the Certification became the official birth certificate in 2001 ((http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2170432/posts).

Rain said...

Thank you for the information, Teller. I had heard part of it but far enough back that I didn't have a link or anything.

Greybeard said...

Teller...
Doctor's name?
Hospital name?
Those critical pieces of info are lacking on this "Certificate".(In fact, the President(?) has claimed at different times to have been born at BOTH Honolulu hospitals!)

You may feel satisfied.
A bunch of us don't.
It's not a Birth Certificate...
It's a certificate certifying there IS a Birth Certificate.
He won't produce that, and in fact is fighting like hell not to produce it.
As I said before, anyone with any intelligence at all senses there's something wrong here.

Greybeard said...

And...
Was it the Governor of Hawaii that swore there WAS a certificate?!!
So the statement that there is no certificate is questionable too.

Ingineer66 said...

Maybe the Birth Certificate has a different father listed. There could be another reason that he doesn't want it released. Remember Clinton would not release his medical records supposedly because it said he had a bent crank. There are all kinds of angles to this story, but for me there are about 1000 other things to worry about instead of this. Obama is doing something that irritates me nearly every day so I am not going to wait for him to get removed from office because he doesn't have the proper birth certificate.

Rain said...

Graybeard, the point is that even if he was born in another country, which I do not believe, it would be a minor technicality which the courts would have to rule on. A current Supreme court ruled by the right wing didn't think it had merit, did they? Because his mother was an American citizen, he would be natural born anyway except for a technicality of when Hawaii was made a state and her age then.

The very fact that this bothers birthers is more because of his racial mix, what he is doing politically (which he was elected to do and more), and possibly your fear that someone educated anywhere but in the US would be a natural subversive due to brainwashing, I guess. If you were looking at a white man, who was doing the will of the far right, you'd not be even discussing this.

Logically, you know as well as anyone that he was here within days of birth assuming his mother found a way to go to Kenya without a passport, had her baby and rushed back to the US. Birthers would not care at all were he white. You can't and won't admit that but it's obvious to anybody else.

You would not believe seeing a long form birth certificate either because Limbaugh laid the ground for that by his belief it's why Obama visited Hawaii when his grandmother was dying. People like you will never believe it no matter what he presented. So he's best to just keep on keeping on.

As ingineer said, he might have reasons for wanting to hide something about his birth. Maybe it's stubborn pride. I don't really care. He will serve out this term and you know it. You would be better put to getting the right to choose a candidate with a chance to defeat him with the votes from the middle. If you don't do that, you may well be stuck with another four years.

Just think how we on the left felt when we had Bush who wasn't elected by a majority, did have fraud in Florida and yet we saw him do the tax cuts that made no sense and start two wars that are still making us suffer. Obama at least was elected by a majority of Americans even if some of you now wish democracy didn't exist.

Rain said...

I want to add that I appreciate you from the right coming here and putting out your viewpoints. I do not know how much good it does for us to all discuss these things. I think so many of us have made up our minds but it's rare to find a venue like this where right and left can put out what they think. Most places I go to online are all either left or right. Everybody agrees. Here at least we can express our pain and upset from the right or the left and do it with respect which everyone has been doing in my opinion. I appreciate it as I know it's not easy. I know it from my own experience.

Greybeard said...

As I've said before in this forum, Ingineer, I don't think it'll be Republicans removing him from office. I think the Dems will do it when it is to their advantage to do so.
(And with Hillary needing him out of the way in '12, watch her closely.)
I'm composing a blog post about what happens after the November elections, when Obama and the Dems will have only a couple months to push through the most radical of their programs, (again, against the will of the majority ie. the health care reform bill).
I think the changes he, Pelosi, and Reid have planned for the country during November/December/January will boggle us all.

Rain said...

I have thought Obama might decide himself to be a one-term president and Hillary is well situated to run if he does that. I just hope the right choose someone who is not so extreme that they cannot be a viable choice, someone with the ability to run this country, with strong values. That will have a lot to do with what happens.

I don't think Pelosi or Obama can put through a lot of radical things like you worry. They barely got through health care (which polls said at that time most Americans did want done but some wanted single payer and some wanted limitations on how far it went). At this point, for something extreme, he doesn't have enough majority even among democrats to push anything through. Even if he did something way out there, not sure what that would be, it would quickly be overturned.

I do relate to how you feel though.I have felt it several times in history and more recently with thinking how far will these people go? Will they take our freedoms? It wasn't with Democrats in power ;)

TellerIP said...

Rain. I disagree with you. If he were born in a foreign country, it would mean that he was not a Natural Born citizen. My research into the meaning of Natural Born at the time of the writing of the Constitution shows that it always meant "born in the country."

However, not to worry, he WAS born in the country as his OFFICIAL birth certificate from Hawaii shows and as the three officials (the heads of the departments of Health, Vital Records and the governor) all say. That makes four with the original clerk who looked into the file and filled out the form to make the Certification.

Graybeard: The Certification of Live Birth is the OFFICIAL birth certificate of Hawaii (http://www.staradvertiser.com/error?c=y&errorURL=http://www.staradvertiser.com/columnists/kokualine/20090606_kokua_line.html). Thousands of people use it every year to get US passports.

It is a short-form birth certificate; that is why the hospital and doctor are not listed. But many states now issue only short-form birth certificates. It is not forged. The McCain campaign looked into that and found it false. And the confirmations of the officials to the facts on the document also indicate that it is not forged.

Graybeard. I did not say that there was no long-form birth certificate. I said that Hawaii does not send it out. The link that I provided confirms this. The long-form birth certificate is in Obama's birth records file in the DOH of Hawaii, as the officials said in their first confirmation.

Rain said...

As I understood it, TellerIP, if one parent is American and they happen to be overseas when their child is born, the child is considered a United States natural born citizen. Missionaries, many who work overseas would have a big problem if it was seen otherwise.

The complication with Obama was when Hawaii became a state and she was under the age of 18 at that time without enough years after that to qualify but it is a technicality. McCain was also not born in the US, but on a military base in Panama. They changed the laws retroactively (as I understand it) to make that considered natural born. The point is that no president in our first years as a nation could qualify if you take the requirement strictly.

I agree, however, that he was born here and his mother wasn't so foolish as to travel the last days of her pregnancy, didn't have any desire to travel to a third world country to have her baby delivered, could not have probably found an airline willing to fly her if she had been especially if she had no passport. Birthers have tried to make the case for not only him being born in Kenya but Canada.

My feeling though is that it would not matter if the courts really looked into it, given what the issue would be, which is what the five conservative Supreme Court Justices probably decided. If they thought there was any chance of this being an issue, you can bet they would have.

Ingineer66 said...

Well Rain you are about to get your wish. The Bush tax cuts expire at the end of the year so the lowest wager earners in this country will see a 50% tax increase. Even though Obama has said that it is foolish to raise taxes in a weak economy and that people that earn less than $250k will not see a tax increase that is what he is poised to do. Enact the largest tax increase in U.S. history.

Rain said...

Ingineer, it's not my wish but neither is this huge deficit. IF Bush wanted those tax cuts to be permanent, why make them have an expiration? That was during the years where Republicans controlled the House and Senate. Obama won't have to get a tax increase but just let the other one expire which given a Republican party who wants to do nothing, I can see it being hard to make the tax cuts permanent but more progressive. Exactly what Obama will do, time will tell but you on the left sure do live a lot of this in advance. Ever hear the acronym for fear? False Expectations Appearing Real. You guys die a thousand times before anything even can happen. No matter what Obama does right now, you will have a fit but how did you plan to get down the deficit? Maybe let all social programs end and favor starvation in this country when there are say no food stamps? Exactly how did you expect to end that deficit? Cut military spending? Most of you would be crying he's a terrorist helper. Whatever he does, you'll hate it even if he continues the tax cut on the bottom earners. He might as well do what he pleases as he'll never please you.

TellerIP said...

Re: "if one parent is American and they happen to be overseas when their child is born, the child is considered a United States natural born citizen. "

That MAY be the case, but it is not certainly the case. What is certain is that ALL US Citizens who were born in the USA are Natural Born Citizens. This is because the meaning of Natural Born at the time of the writing of the Constitution was "born in the country." In other words Natural Born meant native born, but native born was not a popular expression at the time.

That is certain.

What can be debated is whether the USA can amend the original definition by adding birth to US citizens abroad. I think that it can, but that can be litigated.

Many definitions hold that the birth to citizens abroad is also Natural Born status, as does this:

“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government, i.e. in its territorial limits, or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.” — Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition

And, I don't disagree. My point is only that to fall within the category of CERTAIN Natural Born Citizen status requires being born in the USA, and Obama was.

cj said...

TellerIP -

I know I'm coming to this conversation late but here's a question for you -

Short form may be standard now, but does that mean the long form birth certificate has vanished? That it couldn't be released at the request of the President of the United States?

Look, I believe he's an American. Even if he's not, I don't want the country to go through the horror it would go through. We don't need a Constitutional crisis here on top of everything.

But, if I were Obama, I'd release the damn long form certificate and tell the birthers to shut the 'f' up about it.

It makes no sense to me that he won't put the definitive proof out there.

cjh

TellerIP said...

Re: "Short form may be standard now, but does that mean the long form birth certificate has vanished? That it couldn't be released at the request of the President of the United States?"

Answer. The long-form is in the file. We know that it is in the file because they said "an original birth certificate" in the first confirmation.

But why should Obama ask for it? The short-form is the official birth certificate. Also, the officials in Hawaii have said that they do not send out the long firm to ANYONE. So, if Obama asked for it, he would be asking for something that others do not get--which would be unfair.

Finally, there may be some states that have switched to the short form and have not retained copies of the long form, so candidates from those states could not show it, and would it be good policy to ask for the long-form when some states do not have it?

Actually, Hawaii and many other states do not have long-form certificates for persons born after the short-form became the official BC (in 2001 for Hawaii), so in time there will be MANY people who will not be able to show long-form certificates because there will not be any.

In Obama's case, the official birth certificate, which is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the US State Department, and which in his case was repeatedly confirmed by the officials, is overwhelming proof that Obama was born in the USA.

Anonymous said...

This is TellerIP. (There is some technical problem in logging in.)

Re: "Short form may be standard now, but does that mean the long form birth certificate has vanished? That it couldn't be released at the request of the President of the United States?"

Answer. The long-form is in the file. We know that it is in the file because they said "an original birth certificate" in the first confirmation.

But why should Obama ask for it? The short-form is the official birth certificate. Also, the officials in Hawaii have said that they do not send out the long firm to ANYONE. So, if Obama asked for it, he would be asking for something that others do not get--which would be unfair.

Finally, there may be some states that have switched to the short form and have not retained copies of the long form, so candidates from those states could not show it, and would it be good policy to ask for the long-form when some states do not have it?

Actually, Hawaii and many other states do not have long-form certificates for persons born after the short-form became the official BC (in 2001 for Hawaii), so in time there will be MANY people who will not be able to show long-form certificates because there will not be any.

In Obama's case, the official birth certificate, which is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the US State Department, and which in his case was repeatedly confirmed by the officials, is overwhelming proof that Obama was born in the USA.